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they can vote yes on abolishing slavery unless at the same time we can tell them that you're seeking a peace. >> it's either the amendment or a confederate peace. you can't have both. >> congress must never declare equal those who god created unequal! >> leave the constitution alone! >> you've stepped out upon the world stage now with the fate of human dignity in our hands. blood springs forward as of this moment, now, now, now! >> abraham lincoln has asked to us work with him to accomplish the death of slavery. >> no one's ever been loved so much by the people. don't waste that power. >> this fight is for the united states of america. >> we choose to be born or are

we fitted into the times we're born into? welcome back to a special holiday edition of "morning joe." >> you're special. >> you should feel very special. >> enjoying your holidays? >> yeah, it great, all that togetherness. thank you for spending part of your morning with us. we're talking lincoln. >> wish the neighbors would leave already. >> are they over there still? >> yeah, they came over. >> do you know their names yet? >> not yet. i never met them. they're from -- hey neighbor. we let them in but -- >> hey, how are you, it's good to see you. then it's like i don't know your name. >> i'm going to buy them all tickets to my favorite movie of the year "lincoln," going to hand it to them on line, get them to unlock it. >> that's a good idea. >> this is a heck of a coincidence. steven spielberg directed film based on doris concerns good win's book "team of rivals," the

film turned out to be talk of t capitol hill, and pundits expressing renewed respect for the art of the political deal. >> academy award winning director and producer steven spielberg joined us along with rick engel who devoted the entire time to the question what would lincoln do? and we spoke to adaniel day doig who had the extraordinary task of becoming leaningoe lincoln? >> lincoln as portrayed by daniel day lewis was a deeply

compassionate human being, who understood the people who were both opposed to him and the people who were supporting him and had just a deep, deep kind of communion with all of the issues. and that his patience, which as you know he was widely and broadly criticized for, too slow to come to any decision, too slow to replace mcclellan with general grant, too slow to issue the emancipation proclamation waiting for a great victory on the battlefield at antietem and he was hurtling down through history. in a sense you, you see all sides of him. >> you also see the turmoil. we overlook the fact that there's turmoil inside his house, turmoil inside his union,

the new york riots. this is a president that had to stare down enemies on all sides. >> true. >> the other thing that the movie does is that all of these characteristics that lincoln represents, patience, strategic delay, are things that in our society now we would castigate a candidate for you're slow to make decisions, you change your mind all the time. it's one of those -- unfortunately and i think it's relevant for both candidates, there are aspects that we see in the movie from lincoln that candidates cannot do now because they would be criticized for having lack of leadership. >> and for complete synergy the film is based in part on doris kearns goodwin's book "team of rivals" and doris writes in the latest issue of "time" how lincoln was able to connect with every day americansshe writes "the white house then was so much more open than it is today. people wanting government jobs would line up by the hundreds outside lincoln's office, each

with a story to tell, a reason his family needed a clerkship or a job in a post office in order to survive. lincoln's secretary told him he didn't have time for these ordinary people. you are wrong, he responded. that's pretty good. >> willie, you say that every day. >> one of my credos. >> i want to ask you about the political courage it took for abraham lincoln to take on this fight. it seems sitting in 2012 like an obvious thing to say, to free our foal people from that bondage. >> what was difficult is he did not run on the abolitionist ticket. he would not have been elected had he run as an abolitionist.

he had an urge from his very young years that slavery was an atrocity. but from the beginning when the war first started, he could not let the border states secede and go south. because he couldn't let that happen, he pretty much put on a political theater, meaning he said what had to be said to calm the border states down and before the secession of the southern rebels, he tried very, very hard to prevent them from leaving by pretty much telling them anything they wanted to hear. but in his heart, in the deepest reaches of abraham lincoln, he knew slavery had to be abolished at the very beginning of his term. >> was it a a difficult decision zeroing on one part of his life? >> really difficult decision because doris's book is brilliant. she was sending me chapters back

as far as 2003. there were so many highlights in lincoln's presidency. but for a movie audience -- for a mini series it would have been one template. for a movie audience, i thought to get to know him you had to see him wrestling with a huge crisis, not just a crisis of secession and civil war and the fact that several hundred thousand were killed during that war but a crisis between abolishing slavery, which could extend the war longer if he did and that all happened between january and april of 1865, the end of his life. >> thomas jefferson and james madison all seemed so removed, sons of elite. lincoln seems like the rest of us. he seems a guy that struggles, a guy that loses more elections than he wins, a guy who battles with depression, a guy, like you said, who gets down on the

ground with his son and yet along with george washington, this regular man who struggles with things that so many of us struggle with, one of the great presidents. >> one of the great presidents. and not the greatest looking president in our history. i mean, i mean, because the camera wasn't around, it made it a little bit easier to get him elected, you know? >> here's what "time" magazine editor at large, a lincoln expert himself writes in the latest issue: "lincoln understood that even if times of extreme polarization the moderate center is the path to presidential success, was then and is now. even as he felt his way along the tightrope, lincoln always kept his eye and the eyes of the public on the shores beyond. our most admired presidents have been the ones who panted tomorrow in bright colorss are

no matter how grim the today. >> david in the story has this terrific book called "rise to greatness," which is about lincoln in 1862. and he tells a story that lincoln told to a crowd once that about this french tightrope walker who walked across niagara. he said say you had on your back the entire history of america, the future, the past and you're crossing niagara falls, would you be calling out "go a little to the left, go a little faster, go a little slower." he was saying basically without saying so i have all of this on my back with the most prech rouse of circumstances and everyone is telling me what do do. >> even after this war that caused him so much as it was winding down, he was the man that was telling the north with malice toward none, with charity

for all, he understood that even after this terrible war he was going to have to bring the country back together. >> exactly. and he sadly for us didn't survive his term so he really couldn't begin, let alone complete the reconstruction. >> hey, we just saw, rick, obviously three presidential debates and one interesting vice presidential debate and it seems like, you know, the president had a terrible time the first debate and the third debate it seemed like mitt romney was sitting there and trying to remember what had been put in his head. and they both seemed uncomfortable at times. but you go back to lincoln's day and, you know, steven douglas and abraham lincoln debates, the guys would stand up and how long would those -- >> they were three hours, four hours. >> on and on. it is amazing what --

>> but of course lincoln -- you see a little bit of this in the movie because it was an era where you could make gas also. the longer lincoln was in office, the shorter his speeches became. he didn't want to give people an opportunity to pick at his address. the gettysburg address, was all of a minute and a half, the speech before was two and a half hours. you realize lincoln is a practical politician. yes, he's idealistic but he's ultimately a realist and it's about getting things done. the frame of the movie, the passage of the 13th amendment, lincoln was out there writing down votes and how do we get the congressman from ohio and how do we get the congressman from indiana. >> a little l.b.j. one of my favorite lines doris said about lincoln when she was promoting the book she said,

yes, lincoln was a great man but lincoln was also a good man. we have a lot of great leaders who just aren't good men but lincoln was an exception there as well. >> lincoln had a core of decency and equanimity and he believed in everything that he put out there. and you have to understand that he was cut off. he had so many opponents, opposition outside his party, opposition within his own party. to get anything done took literally an act of congress and he had to twist some arms to get that done. >> and if he had a 24/7 news cycle like we have today, he would have never. the war would havended because again, riots in the north and he was so patient but that patience finally did reward him. >> when did you decide to do this? how many chapters of doris when you decided i have to put this

on the skpreen? -- screen? >> i convened a think tank including steven ambrose and ken burns, trying to figure out who to frame the last hundred years and doris told me she was writing a book about lincoln's presidency. at the moment i said are the film rights available? because i had always really wanted to do something on lincoln but not until i knew that doris was the one was going to put it down on paper direally throw my hat into the ring at that point. >> "saving private ryan" defined world war ii for those who didn't live through it. what's your next project in terms of history that's knocking around in your head in. >> this is one i don't feel like

taking the frock coat off and getting back into something else. i am getting back into science fiction. it's not a reaction to history, it's just that this has been a deep passion for me. now that it's almost ready to come out, my next film is the complete opposite of of this in terms of tone and genre. >> stow what do you watch when you're at home? do you have any favorite series? do you watch "homeland"? >> i watch "homeland." every sunday my wife and i are there washing "homeland", the same way we were there watching "24." i watch a lot of news. i'm a news junkie. >> have you ever heard of these guys? >> oh, yeah. >> talking about" "homeland," i like "modern family," "band of

brothers." >> ellis andrew stanley wrote several years ago, i thought it was fascinating that when we were all growing up, you would either go to school and sit around the office and talk about the movies, the great movies. now it's more like hey, did you see what happened last night? did you believe what happened with brody last night? that did all happen with "band of brothers," didn't it, 2001? >> "band of brothers," i've done a lot of long form but that was the first time we took the steven ambrose book, did a little more research on top of that and we would lay out ten hours to kind of honor the veterans. so to me that was interesting but television, you know, goes way back. i just remember that my dad used to repair television sets when i was a little, little kid for extra money. so i guess we were one of the first people on our block, in our neighborhood to have a television set back in the very early 50s. and i know the same thing happened then that happens now. if there was a really fine sid

cesar's sketch on "show of shows," that was the conversation by the sparklets coolers in those days, that was the conversation. so television has always had that draw and of course television hurt movies 60 years ago because it was the first time movies had had a rival. and but now there's a very interesting balance between television watching and movie going. >> and we thank steven spielberg for joining us. when we come back, our discussion of "lincoln" continues with the woman who wrote the book on which the movie is based, "team of rivals" author doris kearns goodwin joins us next. [ woman ] ring. ring.

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it's inevitable, isn't it? >> you'll begin your second term with semi-divine stature. imagine the possibility peace will bring. why tarnish the invaluable

luster. the same hacks that rejected the amendment ten months ago. we lose. >> i like our chances now. >> hmm. welcome back to "morning joe." joining us from boston is the woman behind the movie "lincoln," presidential historian and author of the book "team of rivals ", doris kearns goodwin. mike barnicle and john holliman rejoin the table as well. good to have you on board this morning. >> good to be with you. >> we're talking about obviously lessons from the past year. tell us what steven spielberg's movie, inspired by your book, inspired by abraham lincoln teaches us in the aftermath of this election and in the middle of some pretty damn difficult debates over our financial future and how best protect our children. >> i think the most important thing it teaches us about presidential leadership and about what politics can do to

make life better for people. we have such a cynical view right now of our politician bus what lincoln shows and what movie reveals is in the hands of people like abraham lincoln, who was a man, not an icon, it's possible to have deep convictions. he was willing to go to war to save the union, to screw his second term to get that 13th amendment passed but decide those convictions, he was willing to compromise to do whatever was necessary to reach the goals. he never lo his connection it that popular assemblage from which he had come. i think it does allow to us believe once again that politics is a noble profession and that the right people can make the right choices, even though we've lost a lot of faith in it right now. >> doris, a few days ago when the president spoke in newtown high school to the country, in

the wake of his speech because we've become a nation of 300 million social commentator with twitter and everything, there was an astounding number of people who were critical of the president for never mentioning or using the word "gun" in those remarks that sunday evening at the high school and yet in the gettysburg address, president lincoln never used the word "slavery" and yet the power of persuasion is such in the presidency that are there similar lines do you think in terms of what lincoln did with his words and what president obama seems to be doing or on the verge of doing with his words? >> i think you're so right, mike. in a certain sense i thinking of this. think about what lincoln said at the gettysburg address. no word can express the losses that we feel as we are dedicating this cemetery to these soldiers that have died and yet we the living have a responsibility to somehow make

our deeds make those lives worthwhile. and that was the general tone of president obama's address. i don't think he had to go into the specifics. i think he had to make sure i have a lot of power, i'm going to use that power, exactly as lincoln says in the movie, i'm clothed with immense power, you get this 13th amendment passed and then in the days that follow you follow up with what you're going to do about video games, about gun control, the internet, et cetera. i think the tone of it was absolutely pitch perfect. >> doris, it's john holliman. one of the things that's most amazing about the movie is the way in which it kind of celebrates the kind of darker side of politics, right? i mean, it sort of it -- it sort of shows you that this isn't all about nobility and idealism and that there's a lot of trading that's who happen, a lot of begging and borrowing and bribery that go on to get big things done. if you were sitting in the oval office now, i know you spend time with president obama, what

would you tell him are the lessons he should take from the movie on house of representatives he should conduct himself on a whole range of things over the next term? >> he's got to keep that connection closer with the public closer than it was in the first four years. lincoln had those characters coming into his office every morning. after a while people said you don't have time for these ordinary people. he said you're wrong, these are my public opinion baths. you get a sense of timing, a mastery of timing when you've got the sentiment of the country behind you. but the other lesson is not to be embarrassed about making deal. during the health care thing every deal got exposed and it looks like it's the terrible thing. it the end result that matter as long as nothing illegal happens in the meantime. >> you know, doris, you just referenced what for my money is one of the most powerful scenes in the movie "lincoln," daniel day lewis exhibiting great anger

and indicating that he is clothed in immense powers as president. and in watching the movie and in thinking about the speech that the president made at newtown high school, despite all of the advances, the incredible advances in communications that we have today, you know, the internet, the tv and everything like that, we have public people who are reluctant and it's understandable, to express similar anger over outrageous things that -- it's just interesting to me that had the president of the united states today expressed such visible anger as daniel day lewis did portraying lincoln, i wonder what the reaction would be? >> you know, the interesting thing is those words, which were some of the most famous in the movie, are actually lincoln's words, he said "i am clothed with immense power, you are going to get that amendment passed."

you had a feeling president obama was a reaching almost to that point but i still think at the memorial service it wasn't the night for anger, it was the night for consolation. but anger probably should come forward. there's a room for it in public life. it also mobilizes people as well sorrow and good words do. >> no doubt about it and there is nothing wrong with and nothing more powerful than righteous anger when used at appropriate times. i would say certainly in the movie it was used at an appropriate time as it was in lincoln's life. and if this is the no the appropriate time for politicians to be righteous in their ainge eat the state of things, i don't know when is. if not now, when? >> doris kearns goodwin, thank you so much. you're actually going to be here on set in new york in our next segment. >> that's exciting.

>> up next, we're going to revisit the great conversation we had this year with doris and john meacham about the civil war and the battle of gettysburg. that's next on "morning joe." [ woman ] dear cat, your hair mixes with pollen and dust.

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. america is in the midst of a five-year commemoration of the 150th anniversary of the civil war. consider the turning point of that war the battle of gettysburg. it remains a defining moment in this country's history. with us to talk about it, msnbc contributor mike barnicle, he was there, pulitzer prize historian john meacham and he was cheering for lee and best selling author and presidential historian doris kearns goodwin. john meecham, why did gettysburg matter so much? >> it turned lee's army back. it ended the invasion of the north and was the turning point of the war. and at that point, though it was going to be difficult and bloody and the wilderness campaign and many, many lives would be lost,

in a historical perspective, that was the beginning of the end of the war. and my sense, too, is that it resonates not on because of what happened there militarily in '63 but because of the words spoken there, what abraham lincoln did at that battlefield was to redefine the country, rededicate it, as he put it, to a jeffersonian principle. and when we look back on the civil war, it's fascinating to me that so much of our understanding of what it meant came from 1863, not from 1861. >> and, mike, you go to gettysburg and you see that line that marks the south's deepest advance into the north and i have to say as a southerner that grew up, it's hard to imagine

that lee's armies ever got that deep into the union. >> yeah. pickett's charge up cemetery hill, i think you're referring to that. i agree with what john just said about the importance of gettysburg. and there's another caveat i think that's important about gettysburg and it's in our frame of reference of talking about wars, many americans, not going to go to normandy, they're not going to see the bulge, they're not going to visit the battles of the pacific but you can go to gettysburg and can you stand there on a hot july day and through the heat and bucolic countryside, can you still sense the cost of war and it's critical. and you can learn a little bit about the history of the cost of war, which i think is important for all americans and american presidents to understand. pickett's charge was basically a suicidal run up the side of cemetery ridge. >> you stand there and you go to

so many battlefields and there's no way for you to recreate it but you stand at the top and you look down at pickett's charge and you just gasp. >> you look down and you can envision 12,000 to 13,000 confederate soldiers rushing up that hill into the incredible volley and velocity of the union artillery. and you can understand why general longstreet disagreed with general lee about doing this, about the tactics involved and you can certainly understand that during the course of july 3rd and yesterday july 4th they took the day off to gather the dead. but on the evening of july 3rd general lee urges general pickett to reinvigorate his division and go back at it and general pickett says to general lee, "general, i have no more division." they were decimated.

>> none of us are military historians around here so this is pure speculation. i think most that have studied general lee and what he was able to do with the troops he had leading up to gettysburg would say that he was perhaps the greatest general that america has ever produced. do you think that even this great general, this humble man by all estimations, this remarkable character by all estimations just started to believe his press clippings, started to believe that he had done so much on the way up to pennsylvania that even he could do the impossible? >> and you almost have to believe that when you've come that far with those men that you can't stop. because you know what's stopping is going to mean. and the extraordinary thing with this great general lee is to imagine what would have happened when abraham lincoln offered him the head of the union army if he had loved america more than his

state, but the state meant more obviously. but what's interesting, we all say now that gettysburg was the high water mark and indeed looking back on it it is, but for those living at the time, for lincoln the victory at gettysburg produced one of his worst moments of depression afterward because he was constantly telegramming you've got to get lee's army, don't let them escape. if you can get them, the war will be over in a matter of months. if they escape, we're going to go on year after year. in his depression, he started to write a letter to general mead. whenever he got letter he'd called it a hot letter, imdistressimdi'm distressed, you didn't do what i had asked and realizing it would hurt the general, he never sent it. and he did that over and over given. it's a great thing.

you write the letter, cool down psychologically and never send it. >> you know what, i'm going to have to mark that down. so you don't send those letters. >> you don't hit return. >> it's harder for the e-mail. >> that is a problem with e-mail. >> you know, joe, you raise i think among historians, among just people who are taken with what happened at gettysburg one of the more intriguing questions of american history and it is about lee. why did he proceed? why did he proceed with that charge? by the time pickett's charge had finished, don't hold me to the numbers, but it's like 25 of 40 of his commanders had been killed at gettysburg. his army leadership had been decimated. lee wrote to my knowledge no real memoir of that war. so we don't know, we don't know why he did it. >> but he knew by the end of

that day what he had done. >> yeah. >> let's talk about the speech. doris, what is it about that short speech that actually was panned in the papers that week in real time, it was panned. what is it about the gettysburg address that you memorized when you were in third or fourth grade, i memorized when i was in third or fourth grade and our great grandchildren will be memorizing? >> because it provided a meaning for this terrible war. it went back to the declaration of independence. remember the constitution was what prevented us from doing anything about slavery in the south. and finally he reaches back to the ideals of the declaration of independence and he gives a meaning for the war and for the soldiers who died and for all of us that will last forever, even though only in two minutes. i think the reason it wasn't

appreciated in the time -- >> two snints. >> two minutes. after edwards had spoken for the normal two-hour length. they didn't even know he was done so there wasn't this great -- a moment of understanding. but soon literary figures soon understood the glory of it. all the shakespeare, the drama, the bible that he had memorized as a child, he loved scouring the countryside for those books worked their way into his soul and into that speech. it will last forever. >> if you have read the speech and we all ought to reread it regularly i think, he talks about really the spine of the republic. he basically says this nation, this republic will go forward, we will survive, we will outlast this, we will prosper eventually. if you think about it in the context of history, there is the gettysburg address, there is perhaps we have nothing to fear but fear itself from franklin

roosevelt, we have ask not what you can do for your country from president kennedy. how many have food and spoken and had their words chiselled in our mental memory for all these years? now we're talking nearly 150 years. >> for a man who wanted more than anything to be remembered as lincoln did, thinking that that would be the only way you can live on in even existence, he surely got that wish with that terrible childhood, laboring against education, failing over and over again and yet finally living in our minds forever. >> doris kearns goodwin and john meacham, thank you so much. we greatly appreciate it as always. coming up next, spielberg's film want the only one about the lincoln this year. actor anthony mackey from the summer blockbuster "abraham lincoln: vampire hunter" sheds

light on lincoln's lesser known side. stick around. we're at walmart with the simmons family. how much is your current phone bill? four sixteen seventy six a month! okay, come with me -- we're gonna save you money. with straight talk at walmart, you get unlimited talk, text and data for only $45 a month per phone. would we get the same coverage? same coverage on america's best networks. you saved $146.76 by switching to straight talk. awesome! now you can afford to share your allowance with me. get the season's hottest smartphones like the samsung galaxy s2 and get straight talk with unlimited data for just $45 a month -- from america's gift headquarters. walmart.

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it's 80 miles from here to gettysburg. 80 miles will decide will decide whether this nation belongs to the living or the dead. >> we got to keep him away from the locomotive.

that was a scene from the movie "abraham lincoln: vampire hunter." one of the film's stars, anthony mackie, joined to us talk about why it's the perfect date movie. >> i was just saying it's the perfect date movie because you take a beautiful young lady, get her some popcorn and hi-c and when she comes on she goes -- and you say it's okay, baby, it's okay. those big vampires, i'll take care of those big vampires for you. >> anthony, a lot of people saw the title of this movie and they were racking their brains going through their junior year of high school history. i remember a lot about lincoln but the part about the vampire, i must have missed that class. >> if can you get past the

title, if you can allow yourself to believe there's a guy who comes from another planet, goes into a phone booth and puts on a tight suit and flies around the world, you can imagine he was a great super hero. abraham lincoln was the best of all of them. >> how do you combine the history with the -- >> it's called movies. seth graham smith, he's sitting in barnes and noble -- that's not a plug. he's doing book signing and he's saying why didn't anybody write this book before? here we are with a recontextualizing of history for young ladies to scream and men

to say, it's all right, baby, i'm going to take care of this for you. >> world renowned presidential historian, author of the best selling biography "team of rivals," doris kearns goodwin on the phone, on the phone. >> watch this! >> doris kearns goodwin, was abraham lincoln as far as you can tell -- >> i read the book, i can shut it down. >> you've gone through the national archives, you've seen all the pearls, was he at any times a vampire sp. >> it's pretty embarrassing, this man i lived with for ten years, that i went to bed with him every night, and woke up with him every morning, i didn't know he was a vampire. >> your amazing book was more about his politics in the white house as opposed to his personal life. if you go into his personal life, you will learn there were many intricate ideas of what he

did with his night life. see that? huh? thought i didn't read the book. i told you i read the book. >> anthony, the interesting thing is the same starting point for the book and the movie is real, which is the mother's death. >> here we go. preach, preach, go ahead. >> what historians know is it had such an affect on him that he needed to do something that told him i'm going to die now and i shall never return, he felt there's nothing left after we die so he eventually got consolation in the thought if i can do something that gets remembered by time, i'll live on in the memory of others. >> and also, he lost three children, correct, not one ? >> correct. >> and in the movie we have him losing his son. he saw so much death in his life. mary todd was looked at as kind of bipolar before it was diagnosable. you see that in his film and how his personal life is affected by so many outside factors and we

just decided to make those factors vampires. >> the movie stretches reality a little bit. but you don't actually play abraham lincoln. >> yes, i do, with modern technology, yes, i do. >> you basically played abraham lincoln's political consultant, you're like the james carville of abraham lincoln -- >> very good. i'm the robin to his batman. william h. johnson was actually abraham lincoln's chauffeur and caddy -- >> o no, he's a real guys, a real guy. >> he was with lincoln when he gave the gettysburg address. on the way back he died with small position and lincoln with money out of his own pocket had him buried at arlington national cemetery, the first black man buried at arlington national cemetery. and on his headstone he had "william h. johnson citizen." i think it's remarkable, he

didn't call him caddy, he didn't call him driver, he called him citizen. >> we'll be right back. it's t. time for citi price rewind. because your daughter really wants that pink castle thing. and you really don't want to pay more than you have to. only citi price rewind automatically searches for the lowest price. and if it finds one, you get refunded the difference. just use your citi card and register your purchase online. have a super sparkly day! ok. [ male announcer ] now all you need is a magic carriage. citi price rewind. start saving at citi.com/pricerewind.

as we come to the end of another year -- >> what a year it's been. we want to take a moment to

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